M&R Episode 013: American expat couple living in Phnom Penh, Cambodia talk about life and how they make it work on the road and in Cambodia.

In Episode 013 I got to speak with expats Jen and Steve Joslin about the actionable steps they took to leave the U.S. and make a life in Cambodia. From getting a TEFL (Teaching English as a Foreign Language), to starting the blog TwoCanTravel.com, and Steve becoming a stand up comedian. They give great information about how to become English teachers to sustain life while developing their other passions and income streams to sustain a life full of travel and adventure. Plus they are always happy to answer any specific questions so feel free to contact them at TwoCanTravel.com or StevoJoslincomedy.com. Enjoy!

Show notes: Travel Blogger Exchange, Chinese Z-Visa, TEFL, TwoCanTravel, Stevo Joslin Comedy, Get a Misfits and Rejects T-shirt or Tank, Support Misfits and Rejects on Patreon

Hello and welcome to Misfits and Rejects, a podcast about expatriates and the artistic way they've styled their lives around the world.

I'm your host, Chape and . Enjoy.

I didn't fit in America.

Find yourself shipwrecked in a far off place and Dale, welcome to the show.

Try not to plan too much at all, you know, just be spontaneous.

I quit the limiting story. I really tried to overcome that fear.

I'm going to sail again and we have one more, I got one more sail in.

Love her but leave her wild.

But it didn't work for me, the American dream wasn't going to work for me because I didn't fit in the American dream.

I had respect when I was a young star and now I'm an old guy and I have respect for myself.

You know what, Chape, I'm a secret friend and I prefer just to be secret and if you can figure out who Dale Dagger is, then figure it out.

And if you can't, then don't.

Welcome to another episode of Misfits and Rejects.

Today we're speaking to Jen and Steve, aka Steve-O Jocelyn, live in Cambodia.

And they're a rad couple. I've actually known Jen my whole life.

And I got to meet Steve in the last few years and found their story super cool and interesting and inspiring because they've made a really cool life for themselves in Phnom Penh, Cambodia.

And I've never been, but based on their stories, I'm desperate to go.

They have a really cool blog called Two Can Travel where you can learn all about life in Phnom Penh as an expatriate.

They have really cool personal ambitions within their lifestyles where Steve-O's doing stand-up in Asia and Jen's a freelance writer and photographer.

So I thought it'd be really cool to bring them on the show and also get a feeling for how they make a living because in our last episode, episode 12, we spoke to Krista Romano who spoke about teaching English in Asia, but she actually never did it.

So I felt it'd be really cool to bring on this cool couple and give us a really good perspective on what it's actually like to teach in Asia and make money in Asia.

So with that said, I'd like to welcome Steve and Jen to the show. Welcome to the show, guys.

Hey, how's it going?

Thanks for having us.

Happy to, super happy to have you guys.

So yeah, with that said, I mean, I know very little about how you both made your way to Asia.

You've been there quite a few years now.

So maybe we could just quickly give a brief overview of how you actually wound up in Phnom Penh and just teaching Asia in general.

And you can take turns telling your story or however you feel most appropriate.

Yeah, in 2011, we had just started dating again.

We've known each other since high school, so we go way back, but we really wanted to travel, but we didn't have that much money saved up.

So we went out and got TOEFL certificates, TOEFL and a specialization in IELTS.

And then we started looking at teaching jobs in Asia as a way to fund our travels and just be abroad.

And yeah, so we originally wanted to move to South Korea, but at the time you had to get an FBI background check.

That's still the case.

And that was going to be like a six month process for us to get through that.

So then we started looking into going to China.

And that was a month between looking for the job and wheels down in northern China.

So that was that was deciding vote for you is just to get there as fast as possible.

Yeah, basically, we didn't really look into where it was.

It was in the freezing northeast, like close to Russia and North Korea.

So that was an experience, but it got us over here.

Can we talk about that experience a little more?

I mean, because that sounds like a really abrupt, drastic change from what you kind of had hoped to get into in South Korea.

Yeah, yeah.

At the time, we were both living at home with our parents and it was a lot cheaper to move to China than it was to move to Tustin.

So we it was it was a shock.

It was a shock.

It was it was below freezing for six months.

Well, yeah, we're from Southern California.

So that was a big difference for us.

And you guys were still dating.

I mean, this was something you went out and did as a dating couple.

Yeah, I mean, we had never lived together before.

So I think the whole thing, you know, was compounded by the fact that this is a big deal for our relationship as well as moving across the world.

Trial by fire.

And so then overall, how was that experience?

I mean, how long did you end up staying in China for?

In China, in total, we were there nearly three years.

But in that city, you're there for just one year.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

And and obviously, the teaching captivated you enough to stick with it.

What's it like?

I mean, can you give our audience kind of perspective on arriving in sounds like a very secluded culture?

Sounds like a very secluded, cold area and becoming English teachers.

I mean, do they cover that in the course?

What that transitional experience is going to be like?

I don't think anything can really prepare you like no tough course is going to prepare you for being a teacher.

You just have to get in the classroom.

And that's also a bit of trial by fire.

But we learned a ton that year.

We had great co-teachers.

We worked with the Chinese staff.

They were awesome.

But to be honest, when you first start teaching abroad, your options are pretty limited.

You're basically stuck with these EFL or ESL kind of training schools.

And usually that'll be with kids.

So it's just, you know, classes of like 20, 30 Chinese kids of all different ages.

You know, the first school we worked for was a chain.

So they had all of the materials prepared for us.

And they would say, OK, you're doing page 35 and 36, the letter E in social situations or something like that.

And so we would have the material prepared for us.

And then we would have to go up and do like a little song and dance show to make it interesting for the kids.

OK, that make the whole experience better or worse to have that sort of structure?

I mean, people and I are both fairly outgoing.

So to work within that structure was fine.

And you can make the class what you want to to be a fun teacher.

But sometimes you definitely feel like a dancing monkey.

Oh, yeah.

The dog and pony show, I like to call it.

Yes, exactly.

Were you guys making money?

Not so much money there.

I think we were making $1,200 a month each there.

But it was more than enough to live on because our apartment was included and our flights were included.

And I believe they paid for our visas as well.

So we were saving a bit more than we would have saved if we were in California, despite how low that salary is.

That sounds actually really great.

Pretty incredible.

When you kind of arrived and you said that you didn't have many options, what does that mean?

Can you give me some perspective on that?

Like, how do options open up?

Well, I guess we didn't know what to expect.

So we kind of took the first job that was offered to us through the recruiter that we worked with.

But once we got there, I mean, even within the first couple of weeks, we got some funny opportunities.

Like, we were helping a website that sold wedding dresses made in China to Americans and other people abroad just with their communication.

Yeah, they were getting requests in from people like they were getting requests from these women saying giving them their measurements.

And they're saying they're way too big.

And they're saying like, sorry, ma'am, we make wedding dresses, not wedding tents, circus tents.

Circus tents.

That's horribly offensive. That's amazing.

You're helping them not be so offensive in their email communication.

And were you getting paid for that?

A little bit. I mean, it was more just like something to do. Why not?

We also bartended in some other cities in China.

And just little things would come up when you're honestly when you're a white person in China.

People have this view of foreigners there, putting us on a bit of a pedestal sometimes.

So you get these opportunities to do things simply because you are a foreigner.

Interesting. Would you give somebody advice just to show up?

I get a lot of people in past episodes saying that the one thing they would advise is just, hey, just go and figure it out when you get there,

which is a super scary thought for a lot of people who've never done it before.

What would you say to that?

It's difficult to do that in China because to get a, I think you can't do it anymore now,

to become a traveler and then get a job in China is a huge process.

We did that once when we worked in Yangzhou.

You come in on a tourist visa and then you have to go to Hong Kong and turn it into a Z visa.

But I think they've made that harder now.

I think it's a more difficult process now.

But that is exactly what we did here in Penang Pen.

We just flew over here, no jobs lined up, no apartment, no nothing.

And we figured it out here.

In Asia, that is possible.

Okay. And then the experience, the three years that you spent in China kind of prepared you

and gave you the confidence for making that leap of faith and just going somewhere and figuring it out?

Yeah, definitely.

And so what was the reasoning for going to Penang Pen? Why Cambodia?

When we were working in China, we would have breaks in between each school year

and we would always come here to Cambodia.

Just to travel and we also did some volunteer work here.

And we just fell in love with the country, so we kept coming back.

What did you fall in love with about it? What was so special?

I mean, the people. It's so beautiful.

It's like one of those places where just going outside feels like an adventure.

Like, you're never bored here.

And we also had met some very nice people when we traveled here in 2014, including some comedians.

So Steve-O got to see what the comedy scene was like here.

And coming from Shanghai, he knew he wasn't going to find something quite that amazing in a comedy scene.

But the people here were great, so we figured we'd give it a go.

That's so cool. Can we touch upon Steve-O's passion for comedy

and how that's played itself out throughout Asia?

Steve-O, can you kind of give us some insight into what it's like as a white male comedian

catering to the various Asian cultures you've been in?

Yeah, it's been a lot of fun.

For the most part, the audiences are expats.

But in Malaysia and in India, it was mostly locals.

And so trying to appeal to them was difficult.

It was trying to make everything as universal as possible

and to make fun of white people as much as possible.

That's great. And when you're traveling to these various countries,

are you traveling with a comedy group or is this just you and Jen on your travels,

you picking up random gigs?

The latter. We're just going by ourselves.

And I make contacts here in Cambodia.

The Contacts in Cambodia got me a show in Thailand.

Thailand got me a show in Myanmar. Myanmar got me a show.

Contacts I made in Myanmar got me a show in Malaysia.

And then Contacts in Malaysia got me shows in India.

So it's just meeting people who know people who know people.

I see. There's not like a website you can jump on and find out various bars

that are hosting comedy nights.

There are, but they're usually outdated.

So it's best to get in touch with the men themselves.

I see. How does that pay? Do you make any money doing that?

I make a couple bucks every so once in a while, but it is not a full-time gig.

Okay. And Jen, what about your blog?

When did you decide to do a blog called To Can Travel?

And what's that kind of blog about?

I bought the domain name when we were traveling for six months in 2014

I was just like, oh, yeah, let's definitely do this.

But didn't really do anything with it that trip at all.

And then when we moved to Phnom Penh, I kind of made it my goal to get moving on it.

And the focus originally was just travel.

But since we were living in Cambodia, I focused it much more on Cambodia only.

And since then, so many opportunities have opened up to work with different companies.

And I've just gotten more writing opportunities through that as well.

So I kind of see the blog as a platform right now for me to get more freelance writing,

which has been happening lately.

That's incredible. How long did that take you to get to where you're at?

Oh, God. Probably within a year, I got a couple of freelance writing gigs.

And that was because I went to a conference in Thailand called the Travel Bloggers Exchange Conference.

And through that, I just networked a ton and met so many people in the industry.

And that was kind of the catalyst to me realizing that this could be something that I can make money off of.

Wow. And so you are. You're making a little bit of money off that now, or a lot of money.

What's going on with it?

Definitely not a lot of money.

But I'm making a bit of money here and there and hoping to increase that.

Because our goal going forward would be to kind of sustain our travels through freelance writing and then through Steve's comedy gig.

So we're building up to that.

And we're hoping that maybe by June, we'll be at a point where we can do that.

So six months from now.

Okay. Wow. That's a cool timeline.

So, yeah, let's talk like presently. Where's Jen? Where's Steve?

What's your life like? And what do you do for living in Phnom Penh?

I mean, we mentioned that you came as teachers. Are you still teachers?

What's going on with that?

Yeah. So like despite all the other stuff we have going on, we have full time jobs right now in education.

Yeah. So I'm a teacher. I teach first grade at a small international school here in Phnom Penh.

And I love it. I mean, it's going great.

And it's a really awesome opportunity.

I have a leadership role there as well.

So it's good for the resume.

And I mean, ultimately, you know, it's a great fallback to have to teach.

So I'm glad to have the experience.

And I'm right now. I've got two jobs, two part time jobs in the mornings.

I am a manager at the same school that Jen works at,

but a different campus because I'm not stupid enough to be my wife's boss.

And in the afternoons, I teach kindergarten.

So you transition roles. You are the big boss in the morning and afternoon.

You're a kindergarten teacher.

That's right.

That's awesome. That's comedy, actually. That's hilarious.

Yeah.

And so how's that lifestyle? You guys are happy with your jobs.

I mean, you said timeline six months.

So it sounds like you're trying to transition out of those roles

and get back to more what you're really kind of personally striving for,

which is more full-time, Steve-O, for you as a comedian

and more full-time writer, photographer for you, Jen, for your blog.

Yeah. I think we're on a pretty good track.

We're on saving mode right now.

So we, you know, just kind of focus on saving for travel to go as long as we can.

So it's more a save mode with a trickle of finances coming in from your passion projects

with the hope that once you're actually out on the road,

you can hopefully increase those revenues without having to go back to teaching.

Is that kind of the ultimate goal?

Exactly.

I see. I see.

Yeah, I think that's, for a lot of us, what we ideally would like is to obviously be out on the road,

location independent from work, doing what we ultimately want to do.

That's what I'm striving for, for sure.

Can we maybe just talk a little bit about, because last time we spoke in depth,

we were back in the States altogether.

You just kind of come back from, I believe it was China and the repatriation, if you will,

the being back in this society was, I remember Jen having a conversation with you

where it just like you felt like your head was spinning.

And I was talking about the things that I do when I come back from my travels to readjust

and was that a big motivation for you or what does that feel like?

What does repatriation mean to you when you come back to the States and how does that feel?

We just felt like we were at a step with everyone else.

We had different goals and we valued different things than the people that we used to know at home.

And that was just because of your experiences in Asia or the cultural experiences

that you maybe had adopted from your long time spent in China.

Can we go into like more detail on that maybe?

Yeah, I guess so.

I think it's hard to connect about experiences you've had when other people haven't had those experiences.

You know, people only want to listen to your stories for so long before they kind of get bored

just because they can't relate that because they don't care about you.

And I don't know, I just felt like what everyone was doing at home wasn't the track that we were on.

And I just felt really out of place being back home which was very bizarre

because these are people we've known for years and even family.

I found it really hard to the point that I ended up going to therapy

because I just couldn't even deal with all the emotions I was having

and how to reconcile what was going on in our lives.

I think when we went home we also were a bit directionless

because we had considered going home and maybe even staying.

And I think we were also out of step with each other at that point

with what we wanted to do.

So that was a difficult period.

We were home for about five months in the end.

And it was a rough time.

It was a rough five months.

Interesting. And when you say out of step,

were you kind of implying that one of you wanted to stay while the other one wanted to go?

Yeah, I thought staying home would be a good idea.

I don't really remember why now, but at the time it seemed like a good idea.

So what was the tipping point for you to say,

like, okay, let's go back and give it another go?

Just the feeling that both of us weren't coping well

with the situation that we found ourselves in at home,

trying to find work.

We were back where we started before we left for China.

We were living with our parents, we didn't really have a lot of money,

and we really didn't have a good plan moving forward.

But we were able to find what we loved doing

by moving to China and traveling there.

So we thought, well, hell, let's just move back to Asia

and find that happiness again.

Okay, I see.

And it sounds like it worked out.

I mean, is that an accurate sort of perception

that you got back to Asia and kind of all it's kind of reconnected

within you individually and within your relationship?

Yeah, absolutely.

When we stepped back on the plane to head back over,

we flew to Thailand and traveled for a few weeks

before we moved to Cambodia.

And I mean, I just felt like this is exactly what we should be doing.

Just that feeling of freedom when you step on the plane,

knowing that you don't know what's ahead,

but it's going to be awesome and you're going to figure it out.

And I think that in the past two years,

I mean, we really have figured a ton out since moving back to Asia

and shown ourselves that we can literally with two backpacks

just move across the world to a new country and figure it out.

And I think we've done awesome.

Yeah, we've got a really nice apartment.

That's amazing.

And as far as your relationship goes,

I mean, you're married now, obviously.

And would you say the experiences you've had on your travels

have really helped your relationship, hurt your relationship?

What were the ups and downs like over these years doing what you do?

Well, when we first moved to China,

there were only six foreigners in the entire city.

So it was really just us hanging out with each other for a year straight.

So we like each other, thank goodness.

And just the trials and tribulations of going through stuff,

like one of us will get sick and there's nobody else around.

There's no family for thousands of miles.

So we have to take care of the other person or just helping each other out.

Because it is a lot of fun, but it can be tough at times.

But it's always good to have my rock with me wherever we go

so that it doesn't matter.

I'm with Jen, so everything is fine.

That's beautiful.

How about you, Jen?

How do you feel about that?

Got to say the same thing.

Oh, gosh.

No pressure.

No, I feel like you have to have so much trust in your partner

when you're doing something like this,

because you are all each other has.

And I think that we've both shown each other that we are there for each other,

and we will be there for each other through tough times and really fun times.

So it's been amazing.

I wouldn't want to do this with anyone else.

Yeah, it sounds really cool.

Now that your timelines plan, you're moving on in six months to a new adventure,

what's going to happen with your blog, Jen?

I mean, you kind of are based with most of your information right now in Cambodia.

I was on it earlier, and you have a great site where you talk about

where people can get teaching jobs or how to get teaching jobs.

You talk about a lot of really useful information for travelers to come and see Cambodia.

As you continue to move on, will you continue to develop that kind of content primarily with Cambodia,

or are you going to branch out into more different types of countries?

In the next six months, I really want to get a lot more content out there about Cambodia.

The good thing about the internet is once that content's out there, that's where it lives.

So I think that we'll continue to get a lot of traffic through travelers coming to Cambodia,

even when we're not living here.

And we'll have a lot of contacts here to keep our information up to date and things like that.

But we'll definitely move on, and it will be a transitionary period.

I mean, even we don't know where we're heading next, but wherever that is,

we'll try to keep that up to date on the blog and keep providing good information to people.

But I've also got another website project in the works that I think could be even possibly more lucrative

if I can figure out how to do it.

I just bought the Domain Festivals in Asia, and so we're working on that right now, setting that website up.

Oh, wow, that sounds amazing, where you guys would travel around

and give information about the different festivals in Asia.

Yeah, yeah, and just have that be kind of a go-to site for people.

So, you know, say you're heading over here in January or something,

like what festivals are going on in Asia in January and where are you going to be in?

Are you talking about local festivals, not necessarily like the electronic music festivals that happen all over Asia also?

I mean, there's tons of EDM over here too, and that could be a way we go with it.

I was thinking initially cultural festivals, but there are food festivals, there are music festivals,

there are like reading and writing festivals.

There's all kinds of stuff going on over here.

So, yeah, I think it could be a platform for all kinds of different information about different festivals.

I think that's a great idea. It sounds like, as of now, you have a little niche site of Cambodia.

As you said, we'll always be there. You can keep feeding with great information,

and it's time to maybe move on, and the festival one sounds awesome. I think that's a great idea.

Yeah, we're excited about it.

And, Steve, are you just going to keep cruising around doing your stand-up?

Yeah, I'm trying to put together like a 45-minute show, 45-minute act,

and then I can go around and sell that to all of the local guys in the contacts I've made

over the past couple years in this part of the world.

And is there a place that my listeners could go and find Steve-O's stand-up comedy?

Yeah, it's Steve-OJocelynComedy.com.

All right. I can put that in the links at the end of the show, so no worries.

I'll get you guys linked up so people can find you both.

With all that said, I mean, with the amount of experiences you've had,

what kind of advice would you give somebody who's anxious to get out of their nine-to-five in the States

and have the similar type of adventures that you've had either as a couple or individually?

What would you say would be a good first step or how to go about it?

I mean, first of all, I think everyone should know that you can do it.

Like, it's going to be scary, but you can make it happen,

and the hardest part is going to be buying the plane ticket, getting on the plane,

but once you land, you will figure everything out.

I mean, that's just the truth. It's scary. You can't know what to expect, but you're going to figure it out.

Give me a scenario, sorry to interrupt you, but give me a scenario that you have found usually happens

when you land in a foreign country that you've never been to before.

There's usually, for me at least, I notice there's a few scenarios that kind of unfold always,

no matter what country I go to, but I'd like to hear your opinion on that.

As soon as you land, you're going to get about 30,000 offers for transport all over the state

to places that you wanted to go and places you don't need to go.

So that's always a scary prospect, and you don't know where the scam is coming from,

but you know it's out there somewhere.

And then that fear that you've got all of your worldly possessions on your back,

so you want to be protective of all that stuff, but at the same time, you're like,

hey, I'm here to experience the culture. Why don't I just get in this tuk-tuk with this random stranger

and see where he takes me? But luckily, we still have all of our kidneys.

Yes, you do. And so what strategies have you employed over the years

to make yourself feel more comfortable about those landings?

I think it comes a lot from my experience of just knowing, go to the taxi stand.

Don't go to a random person when you get out of the airport, first thing.

If we arrive late night, sometimes we'll sleep in the airport until it's light out, just for safety.

I think those are great. I mean, those are amazing, actionable steps that people can take,

and those are the exact ones that I use, definitely.

I sit and I observe who's hassling me the most. I usually avoid them,

and I kind of just look for the quiet guy kicking it who doesn't seem to need my business.

But that's not always the best way. You just have to feel it out, like you said.

Never get pressured into anything that you don't really feel comfortable doing,

like sit and wait and watch. If you sit at the airport for two hours, who cares?

And like you said, you can sleep at airports. It's super safe.

Yeah, we do it all the time. We're making it pretty cheap.

Absolutely. That's great, guys. Thank you for sharing so many actionable steps

and cool resources, and I'll link you guys up so people can find you.

If they're ever coming to Cambodia, they can shoot over a question to you both.

And I really just want to thank you again for joining me, and I wish you all the best.

Thanks for having us. Yeah, thank you very much.

Thank you for listening to Miss Listen Rejects.

I hope this inspires you to think about your life situation, where you're at,

and possibly make a big decision to choose something different for yourself

if you're unhappy with where you're at in life.

I hope these people that I interview inspire you to go out, spread your wings,

and try something new, to live a different lifestyle that maybe your whole life

people were telling you was the wrong one, but when in fact it's the perfect one for you.

And I'll see you next time.