M&R Episode 202: Viola Eva takes a holistic approach to SEO with Flow-SEO.com.
In Episode 202 I spoke with Viola Eva from Flow-Seo.com. Viola Eva is passionate about digital entrepreneurship, flow, and mindful marketing. As a marketing consultant and SEO, she has worked with clients ranging from individual digital entrepreneurs to software companies to multi-national corporates and government institutions. She is a speaker, educator, and specialist on all things SEO known from Search Engine Journal, UnGagged, Pubcon, Wordcamp Europe, and many other events and publications. Enjoy!
Show notes: Flow-SEO.com, Johnny FD Episode, Reality Riffing: The Fem Boss, Base Camp, It doesn’t have to be crazy at work, Support Misfits and Rejects on Patreon, Get a Misfits and Rejects T-shirt or Tank
Show Transcription
Episode 202 - Viola Eva from Flow SEO
Today's episode I spoke with Viola Eva from FlowSEO.comand what a cool conversation, it was folks I really enjoyed our conversation Vila does a great job of describing the steps which she took to get to where she's at today, as an online entrepreneur, a digital nomad who happened to stumble into the online entrepreneurship game fumbled her way through and then found her niche and where she fits in best. It was a great conversation for me to hear in my entrepreneurial evolution, my online journey, she just drops a lot of value bombs on me specifically, as she kind of not only talks about her path and journey which I can completely relate to, but then she takes him home to hear what I have to say about my journey and takes me through a few different ways to think about it which I really appreciate it so thank you viola, I have no doubt that if you're struggling with her online entrepreneurship venture right now or you want to get into the online ownership game fuel is somebody who's taking a holistic approach to Seo merrigan SEO his perspective on how to organically grow your online presence with the brand's perspective of how they want to grow with their message and how they see themselves as a brand again just such a cool lady such a cool episode I've no doubt you'll get a lot out of it. And if you're a first time listener, please pull up that phone, hit subscribe on to whatever podcast player you're listening to Misfits and Rejects on. If you liked this episode and you think somebody you know could get something out of Viola's story, or maybe even use her service please share it with that person. Viola and I would sure appreciate that. And if you feel so inclined to rate us We always appreciate a five star rating, and leave a comment is also appreciate it, so please sit back, relax and enjoy this episode with Viola Eva from flow seo.com, welcome to misfits and rejects, a podcast about the lifestyle design of expatriates travelers entrepreneurs and adventurers.
I am joined by Viola ala from Flo SEO calm feel welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me. It's a pleasure you are calling in from Berlin, Germany, right.
Viola Eva 2:05
That is absolutely correct. It's 7pm at night for me. It is a beautiful sky and sunshine and the sun is going to be up until 10 so it's a beautiful city right now, despite the weird circumstances.
Chapin 2:18
I love it, I love that yeah it's the the evenings in the summertime that just get me, where you can be outside with the beautiful sun still warm out. Everyone's obviously super happy and loving life and you you're from Germany originally but you are a digital nomad and we've met actually in Thailand, but you're back in Germany jus choose to be back in Germany or just happen to get quarantine there.
Viola Eva 2:39
I chose to be back in Germany already a year ago so yeah I did grow up in Germany I went to university here I initially started working here and then at some point the travel bug you know like hit me and I started being a proper digital nomad in the sense that I just had one backpack and 15 kilos and I saw Central and South America and then lift in Asia quite a bit has been in Bali for two years but then I started feeling a bit restless and already. Last year I decided that I want to post up in Europe again and kind of like the three cities that came to my mind were Amsterdam Barcelona and Berlin. And it just more that I have friends here in Berlin I lived here before my communities here and so it made more sense for me to come to Berlin over the other two cities, just because the community was already here. So I came back last year I gotta get a yearly one year lease to give it a try. And actually in two weeks I'm going to move into a permanent permanent house again so I'm still a world traveler and I've been out and about quite a lot obviously not right now. But I love the feeling of
Chapin 3:46
having the base again. This comes up a little bit and I'd like to talk a little bit more about what was it about the digital nomad lifestyle that just got too unstable for you. Was there one specific thing or was it just the time in your life where it's time to kind of settle and plant some roots somewhere.
Unknown Speaker 4:03
But the thing is,
Viola Eva 4:05
I in many ways I've been a classical digital nomad and then in other ways also not because when I was in Bali I was living there two years and I just considered myself basically living abroad and, you know, Bali being my home. And then when I did the more like proper you know be there for two weeks be there for months, etc. At some point if started feeling kind of like a homeless but home in the sense of like my emotional home I felt kind of, I felt lost, so that was was an emotional feeling to it and then also in the practicality is. I really started to be over going Airbnb and looking at apartments and finding supermarkets and all this stuff I was just like, yeah, I kind of want to be somewhere where I know where all of this stuff is and I don't want my house to kick me out and reject me I just want to know it's there and waiting for me and I can enter at any point.
Chapin 4:56
Yeah. Now a lot of people talk about that I haven't come across that emotion yet sure it'll come at some point but I still really enjoy the Airbnb lifestyle.
Viola Eva 5:06
I think last year. I did a yearly review for 2019 and even though I lived in Berlin, I think I've been to 15 countries I don't want to lie but something like that. So I mean, having the base here and living here and having that as my nest and something to to go back to. I still when I was in Cape Town last year I was in the US, I was in Thailand. So I still get out and about in Iran quite a bit because I love traveling and I love meeting new people and new communities and new countries, I just like you know having having that nest in my back pocket that I can return to.
Chapin 5:41
So when you say 15 countries that's 15 in one year.
Viola Eva
Yeah, that was last year. That's awesome.
Chapin 5:46
How many of you, compiled in your life, of being a digital nomad and travel.
Viola Eva 5:53
I don't know, um, I can mouse so with last year going to South Africa now I've hit all continents except Antarctica so I can tell you that much. And then Europe I know pretty well. Yeah, I actually don't even though I've been to so many countries last year I don't feel that well traveled there's still so much of the world to explore and to see so I don't you know I need to check the code.
Chapin 6:17
No, I feel the same so much more to see when you did hit the road, originally after sounds like you kind of got the travel bug after uni, where you straight out the gate developing online enterprises online businesses, or were you just traveling a bit and then kind of discover that you have the skill set that you could utilize to make money online.
Viola Eva 6:35
So, I was always drawn to traveling and going abroad during University, but for some reason I was so disorganized on university and also quite depressed and didn't really get my stuff organized it never really happened as part of that. And then actually after university I picked up my first job which was here in Berlin. And then my apartment at the time decided that he wants to go on a world journey for a year, and basically asked me if I wanted to come and join him, which for me was a weird time because I wasn't in university a really long time. And then I just kind of like, you know, got a job and got a, you know, mature lifestyle or something like that. And then basically leaving that again to world Jenny was a bit of a weird decision but I just felt so called because I felt like I missed it so much before in a missed opportunity before so that I decided to take the leap. And then originally we're kind of thinking to do more like a backpacking trip but let's see the world like look at the sights let me meet some shamans see some countries, go hiking go on some adventures. And then I was already in the startup intrapreneurship community in Berlin and going to events and hosting events, and then basically it just happened that a few weeks before we left. We learned about digital nomads, and at the time Amazon FBA Fulfillment by Amazon ecommerce with Amazon. And then so basically instead of this being a world journey one year. We then pretty quickly decided this is going to be a journey of us, becoming online entrepreneurs. And at the time, so this was 2015 at the time, I read a travel blog from a German girl, and she wrote like yeah I make 10 K, a month, and as like easy so we we stopped the Amazon FBA, we make 10 k a month in like three or four months, and then just gonna stay an endless traveler, obviously didn't work out but like that. And it took a lot longer to get there and it turned out completely different than what I originally set out. But that was to start.
Chapin 8:39
This is beautiful. Can we go in depth on this because I love that you just kind of discovered it on a whim like this wasn't your plan at all. And then you sounds like you dove headfirst into Amazon FBA or. Yeah. And then, how did it not work out in the way you thought.
Viola Eva 8:56
So here's the thing, so I've been drawn into entrepreneurship and business since my studies I have a bachelor's in economics and my minor was kind of like Business Administration and I was volunteering a lot in my studies and I learned about business and leadership. So I was already very much in the startup space I was running events, kind of like creative problem solving events for startups. So I already knew that I liked that environment but it didn't know that there was such a thing as a digital nomad, and also to be honest, it didn't even occur to me to be self employed, like, I have one uncle that has his own business, but it's not really a thing like most German people and parents and the parents of my friends everyone was employed like it didn't even becoming an intrapreneur it self employed it wasn't even on my radar. It was only when I discovered digital nomads and what they do that I even said it to comprehend that this was an option. And then Amazon FBA yeah we basically we followed all the courses, this was just when Amazon FBA was coming, it was already successful in the US and just came to Germany. So we watched some courses about what product to buy you know get it from Alibaba ship it and all this stuff. And then we did the complete opposite. So instead of getting like a household item from Alibaba and selling it on Amazon Germany. We decided to sell a handmade ceramic cup from Bogota from a ceramic factory, just north of Bogota, Colombia, that we personally visited and we loved the cup and it was an item that was breakable, and that needed wrapping and it was a gift item that you give for Valentine's or you mother for Mother's Day, but it was not household, you know, buy a 10 at the time, Amazon item. So we listened to all the courses ignored all the advice and brought out this first product. And it just could never, it would rank and we would give away them for free, to generate sales, so that the algorithm places you on page one. And then as soon as we're on page one it dropped again because no one wants to buy, you know 25 bucks for two cups on Amazon. And what I realized today is this probably should have been on Etsy, like this is a classic Etsy kind of like high priced gift, nice looking object. It wasn't if people would type in mug into Amazon they want to buy the white, kind of like, you know, classic mug for the Office for three bucks, they don't want to pay 25 bucks for a gift. But I didn't understand this at the time I didn't understand that Amazon sales commodities are not necessarily the boutique like cute stuff, but actually we've been on point because if I go through Berlin now, and I go through the cool hipster stores and they all have ceramic goods. They have exactly that type of cup that we were selling. So I think at the time it would have been better to maybe approach cafes or school stores and sell to them, but with the price point and everything it just didn't make sense for Amazon.
Chapin 11:46
Yeah, maybe we're even too early to the market.
Viola Eva 11:49
And yeah like I mean that this this is very favorable way to look at it I don't think that's what it was.
Chapin 11:55
You ever find your footing with Amazon or did you just completely scrap it and pivot somewhere other direction.
Viola Eva 12:00
Totally scrapped it launched three more project products. One was a handmade soap, then a leather bag. And then finally, after all these three projects failed and you know we lost a bunch of money in buying the inventory. Then finally we did what you were meant to do which is buying a thing from Alibaba and we had like a neoprene waterproof waist back. And that was selling kind of okay, I would say. But we were just both so uninspired by it like there was no alignment with the product or anything like that so that we scrapped it. And then, yeah, lost a bunch of money I think in the end it was like a process of like a year. but then if you buy the inventory you know ship it, and then you know sell it cheap or sell it or give it away for free, etc. So it was kind of an expensive learning at the time when we've been on a traveling budget, but in the end I think it was the best learning, because it did what it did is it made me start going to co working spaces, it made me start to become part of digital nomad communities and entrepreneurial events it taught me about branding and marketing and funnels, in a way that I don't think I would have learned if I would have stayed employed. So in a weird way a lot of the things that I do now are result of this failure, even though this business. Financially didn't work out at all.
Chapin 13:25
Where'd you go next.
Viola Eva 13:27
Well this kind of like in the middle of this I ended up in Bali, and then a few things happen. Firstly, at the time I was one of the few people doing Amazon in the CO working space. So then the owner asked me to give a presentation on this, and I gave a talk called. Actually I don't know if I'm allowed to curse on the show so let's say, oh I messed up my Amazon FBA business. So I gave that talk and this kind of like put me on the radar with a lot of people, so that happened. And then the other thing happened is I just realized I'm super broke like I don't, I don't have any kind of like money left I'm you know one year later, there's no 10 k a month, nowhere to be seen, and they're not going to happen, which basically then I started freelancing, and you know helping people with translations helping people with FBA help helping content writers, and then also picked up content writing and SEO for a friend, and then from there basically our Corporation exploded into an SEO agency and ultimately led me to where I'm at today with my own business with flow SEO.
Chapin 14:33
So cool yeah you're well versed in everything you just spoke about like you've given it a lot of thought and you've had your hands in a lot of different pies, with the SEO thing is this something that you're, you're passionate about as well because you said something earlier like about alignment. And obviously everyone's like, oh, follow your passion and do this and how do you feel about that. I mean, are you aligned with SEO is this something that just you wake up and excited to do every single day.
Viola Eva 14:59
So the short answer is yes. And the long answer is this SEO aligns with me because it has many properties that I enjoy. I enjoy that it's analytical I enjoy that it's technical I enjoy that I can spend a lot of time in spreadsheets. I like that it's strategic in its approach. I also like that it for example, it doesn't involve design or, you know, making something look prettier is not really part of it as much. So these are properties that I enjoy. I probably could also become a very happy Google Ads consultant or Facebook ads consultant so in that sense it might be a bit of a coincidence that I ended up with SEO, but everything about SEO like building website structure creating content calendars mapping that out these are all activities that are really really fun for me. And then the other thing is a lot of SEOs are not so happy about client work, but actually for me. I think I'm like an extroverted introvert. So me having the client calls is actually a lot of fun. And what I'm looking right now is I'm looking for new SEO consultants for flow SEO and I'm kind of looking for the purple squirrel that likes clients and that likes spreadsheets, too. And I'm starting to realize that this is actually quite rare, but I've always liked talking with clients and you know discussing their marketing strategy. Getting insights, helping them optimize the website so even though yeah I'm inherently shy and introverted I learned to sell and yeah I enjoy the client conversation. And to be honest I think for me is probably better than SEO because SEO, in a way, is still a slow game. While I think with Google ads and Facebook ads you have to stay more at the top of your game every single day and check the details every single day. Then SEO is a bit different in the sense that you're writing content now to rank in a few months, right. So, these are the properties that make it better I really enjoy SEO, but in general I just like marketing I like psychology I like marketing I like, I like. Understanding the human mind I like persuasion etc but I like it from an analytical perspective and SEO is very rewarding.
Chapin 17:16
In that sense, real quick what is a purple squirrel.
Viola Eva 17:21
Oh, actually I thought this was an English term yeah because an American person said this to me. So, as someone who can do everything, like, like a unicorn ash it's interesting I thought I picked up some like native English like trivia but maybe it didn't.
Chapin 17:38
Maybe I've been out of the country too long and this is a common thing use I don't know. What about. I mean this is cool that you like to do what you're doing and you obviously are very talented at what you do, Do you ever have ambitions to start something completely different. Like just go and like, Oh, I really have always wanted to do this and I'm going to go and start totally
Viola Eva 17:58
like you know. So the thing is I clients find me through public speaking and events and content marketing, so I don't have any cold outreach campaigns running. It's all branding multiple touchpoints etc This is how people find me. But what I totally dream of is using my expertise in SEO and content marketing and funnels for a product or service that is not digital marketing, you know, because I'm still, I think, yeah, this is for me it's like logical so I work with a lot of software companies and there's a lot of products that I really enjoy and I definitely I've been toying especially with the corona crisis and me being home so might have been toying with that idea like, what would it be partnering with someone again and kind of bring my SEO and marketing knowledge to the table, what would what would it take what kind of job or project would it take for me to go in house again and work for someone and work on something and I think I'm pretty value and mission driven, it's obviously because pudlowski, you know permit us means like now I'm financially stable and I can do the things that I want to do and I can buy the things that I want to do. So I'm out of the grind of worrying about, you know, my income. So now it's more I'm wondering, what do I choose to contribute to what part of projects and communities do I want to be part of. And the first step was for me to cut out some clients that didn't feel 100% good and focus on clients and their products that I very confident in and that I enjoy, and then yeah, maybe, I mean life is long, you know I'm 32, you know there's a lot of opportunity for me to put my marketing skills to use for a project that I feel really passionate about.
Chapin 19:41
So yeah, maybe give us some examples. What What is close to your heart What kind of clients are you working with you're like this is rad and what you're getting behind or some of the ideas that you just kind of alluded to, like a product or service that you really could stand behind and feel like you're delivering something that's a part of your mission.
Viola Eva 19:58
Right, so I mean, I think there's a lot of kind of like social and green businesses that that do like wonderful things. I have a few friends who do like great education on like global food supply chains and how you can source locally and all this stuff that I think is something that is very interesting there's some very interesting green ecommerce businesses. There's some great personal development companies. So, so that is that is stuff that definitely inspires me and those communities that I like. And then in terms of the day to day like right now flow is kind of a mix. They're all digital businesses so they are suffering companies, e, e commerce or E learning. And this is also, because this is also because I like working with the people who run that type of businesses. So most of the clients are medium big in the sense that maybe between like one and 15 million yearly revenue which still means they usually small ish teams, which means there's still a lot of flexibility, there's still a lot of impact to be had, there's great opportunity to shape their campaigns and the things that they do and stuff actually getting implemented. So I enjoyed that part of it, but also as someone who works in a company like that and it's already a digital product. They also understand that SEO is crucial they understand that their website is crucial. So there's a lot of discussions that you don't have to have and it's more about how do we do this, then why are we doing this and so this is I enjoy basically working with fellow technical marketers and data driven people and we just seem to have a very similar mindset when it comes to being analytical about our marketing, and this is how we came that these are the clients I mainly work with
Chapin 21:40
no it seems very in line with a lot of stuff. So are you talk about mindful marketing and a holistic SEO, it's like terms you don't normally see. You know, on a website like yours so I'm trying to tap into more that side of you which, you know what, whether you passion about yoga, meditation, things into helping people with their SEO.
Viola Eva 22:01
Well, so okay so Holistic SEO in mind marketing so this has a few. There's different layers to it. So firstly it's that it's selecting the project that I want to work for I think that is crucial. Like being mindful, I think, so I'm an economist so I think there's a few ways in which you can impact the world, which is how you invest money how you spend money and how you spend your time. So firstly, I'm choosing to spend my time with projects, you know that I enjoy so that's maybe like the macro level on a micro level or in a more practical level, holistic SEO for me actually means integrating three parts. It means what to the brand stand for what do they want to communicate what do they like to talk about, that's the first part. The second part is, what are people looking for. And the third part is, what is Google favor. So this is my very simple model of holistic SEO is SEO is tend to overemphasize what people are looking for in keyword research and search brands tend to ignore search volume what tend to ignore how to pay page ones looks like so that was the first slide is we need to align branding and brand voice and the things that they stand for with data and metrics and that's already a discussion that sometimes SEOs don't like to have but that that interaction is something that I enjoy. But then also being that I think holistic view holistic marketing and holistic agency means this is an agent agency that actually contributes to my clients but also to my life and the life of my team members, because agency business can be a very you know stressful notification heavy urgent. Everything is important for this business. And I very consciously follow a lot of the guys from Basecamp Basecamp, and they have a book called doesn't have to be crazy at work. And I follow that philosophy very much which is like, how can we enable deep work, how can we enable flow, which is you know being our best selves and showing the best performance. And this comes from focus but this also comes from eliminating distractions. So actually, the quality of interaction that we have in my team and the way we work is really really crucial for me, and the fact that we are you know stable that everyone has been with me for a really long time. Both team members and clients and that's a mutually benefiting relationship that I find really really important and sometimes we tend to forget that if we only look at spreadsheets and retainers and revenue growth etc and, and I think looking at the relational side of things is very important as well.
Chapin 24:40
No, it sounds like it works I mean that intuition that you're adding into your, your client work, obviously, and do your hiring and firing every team How big is your team.
Viola Eva 24:49
So, we have five that I can consist. Consider like my core team and then there's maybe like two or three people who help out on a regular basis, but still like less than 10 probably, and that's like that by choice, by the way, this is, this is not a lack of ambition or coincidences like that by choice,
Chapin 25:08
no yeah sounds like you're using what you just described to really build a very solid company that navigates with the right sort of ideals and intuition I keep on going back to that word because this is something I'm struggling with which is I genuinely feel like I'm a very intuitive person. Yet, when I apply it to my businesses that I've tried to start it hasn't gotten me anywhere. And I'm really digging deep and peeling back the layers of what's gone wrong over the last five years of the enterprises I've started because it's like the conclusion that I've come to just in the last like week or so it's like, how important SEO is how important like marketing through you know Facebook ads and Google Ads is like starting from the like if you build it they come premise right fuck that's fucked that that will never work, you know like you really have to, for me, I have to dig into things that I don't like. I don't want to do. I don't have the capital to hire hire somebody else to do for me so it's like alright dude right like time to embrace it. Time to surrender to it and like get down and dirty and start learning this shit you know,
Viola Eva 26:08
what do you mean by creating like a intuition based business and and what part of that did you I you saying you are choosing your product and so this based on what your heart desires. What do you mean by that. What's your what's your process or what have you reflected about the last few years.
Chapin 26:26
I think it's kind of relatable, in some ways, I don't know why you think you chose your first product on Fulfillment by Amazon the same way it's like oh you really want to help this person in Colombia that you really like their product and you lead with that kind of like intuitive sort of soul. Soul like searching sort of like let's make this person's life better and hopefully we can make a million dollars with it as well, where my podcast misfits and rejects was an idea I've had for I had for years. And then just through navigating my life and to really found the podcast platform to broadcast the message on it was never meant to be a podcast it just came to me and every cell of my body said this is the right platform for misfits and rejects to give it to the world yet, it's still something that I have to market, I genuinely thought that by doing 190 interviews would have generated a lot more listeners than I have. Right. And I'm coming to a point where it's like, dude, you don't have the, the listenership that you thought you would at this point in the game. So, and I've been I've completely neglected the SEO and marketing side of things like I post once a week, on Facebook. I post once a week on Instagram, and in my intuition was always like, people will share it. People are gonna like your message because you love these people so much that it has to come across in a way that people want to share it. That's not true. Nobody gives a fuck. And I'm not I mean, like, it's kind of where I'm coming to this moment in time where it's like, you have to almost in this lovely way describe it mindfully and holistically cram the ship down people's throat to get them to, to listen to you know.
Viola Eva 28:08
Hmm. Oh man, you, you said a lot of things there that that that that we can unpack and repeat.
So, please, by all means, Um,
firstly, so for example with with with Colombia and that cups. So when there drove me is you know inspiration and something that felt good and something that I wanted to do. But basically what what I neglected in that is basic business and marketing principles and basically I didn't have I had an intuition for what I liked, but it didn't have an intuition for how the platform Amazon works, which I think now I have a better understanding of Amazon YouTube I have a better understanding what kind of content would work and what kind of platform, but at the time I had an intuition about the cup but it didn't have an intuition about the platform and the audience and anything like that so I think that was, you can say I was naive, or stupid or I just think it was a lack of experience. So I think it does with everything that you did and everything that you try. I think you do get a better understanding, and even every SEO can tell you as you do all the spreadsheet you do all the keywords that you do in the old analysis. But firstly you do your analysis based on a hunch or a gut feeling or intuition on what do you think that will work. And then secondly, it's still sometimes turns out different than you thought it would. there's still going to be some pieces that rank phenomenally you know after two weeks and some who don't and it's not so clear why that is but the more websites you look at the the more content pieces you'll look at your basically your intuition gets backed up by data and then you have a better sense on what's going to work or not work. So that's the first thing is I think you're building an intuition for marketing and business and following best practices, that's one thing. The other thing is, I think it's completely normal. Because I was at a conference last year for technical founders and bootstrap to bootstrap software companies, and they're all technical founders which means they're getting the product and they might be scratching their own itch. And you know they have a good idea, but marketing a product is a completely different skill set like they spend years you know learning to code build product and all this stuff and they're really good at this. And now all of a sudden you're a founder and CEO, and now you have to learn marketing and sales, no matter what business you have whether you're a healer I was on the phone with therapists before and, you know, no, he's a therapist and now he needs to find clients means to learn marketing, whether you have an ecommerce product or whether you have a service at some point as a founder, you have to learn marketing and sales and this can be it's like a second job it's like a second and education is something that you were not prepped and um, took me three years to get a somewhat understanding of marketing and three years as a bachelor degree and I don't think that's a coincidence I just don't think you learn it overnight. So I think that's the harsh reality of becoming a founder, you have to make your peace with marketing and sales. Thirdly, I listened to a great podcast, last week which I think you might like. It's, it's on it's on a show called reality riffing, and the podcast is called the femme boss. So don't be scared away by the title because who a guy, because obviously they call it like that because they have a female audience, but it's basically a podcast on building a business for intuitive feeling oriented value driven people, and and basically it's important to understand that, doing marketing online and doing marketing digitally, you're still building relationships with people and it's different from what we know about building relationship in person, but it's also not. And I think making peace with marketing and sales and understanding it doesn't have to be a capitalistic brutal thing and we don't have to shove people you know stuff people stones fraud and we don't have to scam them and we don't have to take them over. I think there's a lot of, like mindset work to do about that as well and then if you actually get the experience and you know you get your second degree in marketing by just you know working on your website working on it potthast doing all the stuff.
And then back that up with making peace with the fact by understanding all these platforms in the end they still enable relationships and you have to look at it that way. I think that's gonna put you forward. And then I'm going to get you allow you to talk again But the last thing I want to say is, I was at a mastermind last year with a bunch of people who are way more successful than I am, way, way more make much more revenue have bigger teams have moved faster. And I asked them, How do you choose partnerships, or how do you choose business ideas which ones do you know to move forward with. And they said, two things they said they choose partnerships with people that have had successful partnerships in the past, right so that have a good track record. And then secondly they choose business ideas based on those which have traction. So for example with the SEO business I've always had traction. ever since you know I became a content writer and then you know an SEO when it comes manager and a business partner and then started my own business. It was the universe, always open doors for me in the SEO business I called the company flow SEO and I literally did not set any financial goals last year because I just wanted to get a feel for it, see and put it out there and I went to like my best year ever, ever, because I have traction with this and it's really like opportunities are unfolding all the time, but it wasn't like that with the cups and it wasn't like that with the waste bag, etc. So I think going where you have traction going where you have positive feedback that's also something to get. And last but not least, SEO and podcast is a tricky game. I think might be more podcasts and social media and SEO for podcast is kind of weird to be honest.
Chapin 33:55
It was pure gold thank you for that and what you said that really stuck out with me but for me was like, you have to gain the knowledge of the subject, for example SEO Marketing before you can apply your intuition to it and yeah I think that really rang home and makes sense to me and where I'm at like I just have to surrender to it, learn as much as I can and then navigate it intuitively,
Viola Eva 34:19
and choose your battles you obviously seem to like podcasting and you seem to be able to put people to open up and share and relax, which is a great skill. So podcast is good channel for you but I would assume that maybe video or Instagram maybe something that comes easier to you as well like not everything has to be SEO, or writing content it's not the only way. So, or if you feel creative and you know you make, you know good images, then maybe you're better off going Instagram and Pinterest or something like that. I think it's also choosing your battles and play to your strengths, and then yeah i mean you got to study the Instagram algorithm, a bit, because otherwise you know, it's just so much harder. But I think if you choose a medium where you're naturally good at it when people start following you, and they appreciate you and then you back that up with a solid like strategy and understanding the algorithm, then you can go really really far. So you're saying like
Chapin 35:17
taking the podcasts on a YouTube, giving Instagram and all of my time is going to help build the backlinks necessary to drive me forward within the algorithms that people can find me.
Viola Eva 35:29
Well, I know you said backlinks backlinks is very Google SEO. But basically, all. So, what you don't want Google rankings. You don't want visitors on your website you want to reach people we want to show people that they can have a more beautiful life and that they can do something different. So that's the real result so what matters to you is that you reach people. And this this in theory can be anywhere it can be on YouTube can be an Instagram can be on Facebook can be on Google. So that's the first thing to realize and then maybe you're just more drawn to some channels so for example smsu if you really should be on Twitter, a lot of SEO debate is happening happening on Twitter where they just I don't feel drawn to it I just, just don't want to. So I'm not there, on the other hand I really enjoy LinkedIn so I'm LinkedIn quite a bit. So I also you know I respect that. And I know that both of them make sense both of them are professional networks. So, you know, out of the platforms that do make sense I think choose the one that you're drawn to and that's easier for you and that you have better vibration and more joy when creating the content. And then the other thing is what you said backlinks. Um, so this is maybe like a little like marketing, education, backlinks are Google's way of determining authority, because they basically they assess content and then they say okay, the more people link with it, the more relevant is, the more authoritative this is and this is what set Google apart from like Yahoo and Bing and the other search engines. In the beginning, but if you think about it, Instagram and Facebook and YouTube. they kind of weren't the same. So, likes and comments you have on Facebook, the better you rank, the more engagement and views and watch time longer watch time you have on YouTube, the better you can rank. So that metrics of engaging the audience and getting them to follow you. That is something that's the same across platforms, even on Amazon, the number one result is often is the product that is bought the most right so it's always this whatever it's inherent to the platform at that metric of engagement is what's helping you to rank. So if you then you know find a channel that makes sense like obviously I don't know if you're targeting 70 year old men, they're probably not on Instagram, right. So that's, you have to consider if the channels make somewhat sense for your audience but I think what podcasts and this more mindset lifestyle topics. Social media can be great and YouTube can be great and we know this because it also works for other people. And then if you feel drawn to maybe doing more video and audio content more drawn than writing, then I would play to that strength.
Chapin 38:05
Yeah, well, this has been so enlightening Thank you so much. So switch gears a little bit, are you supported by your family and your decisions like have they always been on board with you, choosing to live this digital nomad for Has that ever come up as a, you know like, viola you're not living your life the way we expected.
Viola Eva 38:22
I think today my parents had very proud. I think I was more a misfit reject and black sheep. As a teenager in my early 20s like I was, I was like, pretty like depressed and gaming a lot and didn't really advance in my study and then once got kicked out of my math degree and then started economics after that so I think that was a time that was really stressful for my parents and I don't think they were NES, I mean, they were not giving me shit about it but I think they were really worried for me. And I think that was a time where they were really worried for me and then I got the job you know I got a good boyfriend got a job and I think they were kind of like Oh thank god you know the girl is on the right path. And then a year later, basically I said like, oh you know I'm gonna you know give all this up and set traveling so I think that was scary for them like they never said no or objected to that but I think it was scary for them and. But what I can see now is you know when mom pulls me in Instagram I send all my talks and videos to my family and I think nowadays we can, and excited and they like showing the stuff you know to their friends and other family members and I think what changed, though, is that they can see that I'm happy now. And I think before they could see, and could see that I was really unhappy and that I was really depressed and lost and I think that's scared them and that was hard for them and then maybe they wanted to give advice or tell me what to do but at the time obviously totally did not like this and I just thought like stop giving me advice, you know, but the way I look at it now is I think they were scared and this way they're giving me advice and the happier I have become, you know, the less good advice I get and they just you know share experiences with me interested in the stuff that I do and they watch my videos and they watch my talks and all this stuff, and I think now they generally enjoy it.
Chapin 40:20
Let's congratulate congratulations I had Johnny fd on who talked to his parents like never really giving him credit for his lifestyle, you know he's a dive master in Thailand for a long time and everyone's kind of wrote him off and then he started fun, like doing the digital nomad thing making money on, I think, Amazon FBA as well, sort of crushing it, and then all of a sudden everyone steps in it's like, oh, we knew you could do it and he's just like bullshit you never gave me any like anything I was doing until I finally made it. And that's come up quite a bit actually where people get the sense of like their families aren't really on board with what they're doing, until they finally make it and then everyone steps in and says like oh I knew you could do it I just I knew the whole time you're going to be successful.
Viola Eva 41:01
Well, I mean there's that too. Right. I mean, look, there's, like, there's an interesting article on the tropical MBA which is called the one that the first 1000 days of entrepreneurship and it is the the first years basically you're messing around you don't know what you're doing you're depressed, nothing is working. Everyone wants you to go back to a real job and everyone thinks you lost your mind so that definitely happened that everyone thought I lost my mind. And, okay so this might sound weird but my feeling is more. I have some really good friends and I have really fast. They're generally caring about me and I know that, but in the grand scheme of things I don't think people cared that much like what kind of job I have like, I think about them business all day, every day from morning to night and all the time but, like, my friends that have regular jobs, they're not going to ask me how my revenue went or whether I hired or hired someone and I think maybe it's not a logical question for them to ask or they don't understand what this is to me or how much I think about this but i and i mean this neutral I don't mean this in a bad way but I don't think people care that much about the business or job. They have and they just see you know, I'm living in Berlin I'm here I have a business, and I'm doing some stuff. But I have more the feeling they're like yeah, okay, like, I don't, I don't have feeling that they're emotionally that shaken up by it anymore, but obviously this also came like this about a year or two. Yeah, it was different.
Chapin 42:30
You built this all right i mean this is your baby You started it and built it on on your own,
Viola Eva 42:35
as well. So, I worked with a business partner for two years and we basically co run an agency and then Yelp so SEO is my own baby that I started.
Chapin 42:48
That was almost two years ago. Yeah. How long did it take for you to like become financially viable.
Viola Eva 42:56
So 2015 was a really bad year, and lost money and when you know, had depth. Then 2016 was kind of okay and then 2018 was the first year I made more money than in my previous job. So pretty much for
Chapin 43:18
three years that I mentioned before. Yeah, you've alluded to, you said a few times, you know, your parents see you depressed and now that they see that you're really happy. Can you talk a little bit more about that cuz I know there's people, including myself who have struggled with depression in the past and that when I found happiness is when I started taking full responsibility for my life. How do you feel about that and where you're at now, with, I don't know where you depressed in the past and, and where you're at now is it just like over every day.
Viola Eva 43:49
No, I don't think it's over run with joy every day but you know I feel good, you know like life is good and I'm being happy with the things that I do and the friends that I have and, you know, I'm in a very good state and it's so hard to to say kind of like even about myself but I want to say probably between the age of 15 and 25 I was stuck in a deep existential crisis and I always, I also I started drinking alcohol, way, way too early and I was putting in a lot and drinking a lot with good like for my mental state and then the typical kind of like teenage love No no drama and trauma and then I just felt like really unlovable and lonely for a long time in my life. And I mean, that was a big part of like my despair and then I also think it was always marked. I don't know, like bad thing to say but I had really trouble executing stuff like the gap existential crisis right the gap between my mind and the godhood mind and the endless ability of creation, and then how my everyday life, looked like basically you know got kicked out of my studies hangover a lot like very unhappy, it was just so big and I did not understand how it can bridge the gap between my dreams. And my everyday reality. And for me, what very much drove me in 2015 1617 was really the concept of discipline. And now I'm kind of letting go off with a little bit more towards flow, but at the time it was crucial. It's basically a question of integrity. I needed to learn to trust my own word I needed to understand that if I, you know, want to do something or if I set a goal that I actually need to do it. And I actually like there's a book called Zen habits and they really talk about how you need to set habits like extremely low in the beginning so that you can actually achieve them. And then I also really needed to learn that motivation. As a result, and not the starting point and that you have to start and then if you feel bad, especially if you feel bad and especially if you don't want to, and and that way it comes from the doing and that the motivation and inspiration comes in the process. And I mean that's a very short like two minutes summary of something, you know that has been a 20 year process for me. But that's what I would say about that.
Chapin 46:16
I know yeah articulate thank you for that and being so transparent, I know. Like I said there's blood out there, including myself who struggle with this at times and figuring out how to bring yourself back out of it. I think is where people get lost you know because they don't necessarily know like the steps to take to like you just pointed out like it's actually the process that brings you out of it, rather than trying to think your way through it.
Viola Eva 46:40
It's my biggest fear, and my biggest fear is being depressed and not finding the way out. So when I feel sad and when I feel anxious. Now, it really scares me and and I, yeah, so I got pain, and that heaviness. I can totally relate with that and that's something that. Yeah, whenever I now have to, when I have a bad day I also be like, then I'm still fine you know it's like a bad day but if I have like a series of bad days, then my mindset of, Oh my god, am I going to be stuck there yet. Am I going back there and then I get really really scared. And this is what I need to tell myself like look it's okay you know to feel bad from time to time or not be productive and not do anything. It's okay. But on the other hand, these are the days, you know, once you haven't been doing anything. It's time to do a little something. And whether that's you know taking a shower and getting dressed, or cooking something or doing that one tiny task of your task list that you feel is manageable and you can warning, 50, others but you've got to start doing something. And then this has come to be the only recipe that so far has worked for me. Yeah,
Chapin 47:52
it's a good recipe. You said something earlier, that's completely off the subject that I was curious about such that you were a gamer, when you were younger.
Viola Eva 48:00
Yeah, I was video games you play them. Yeah, I played computer games i mean uh so quite girly so I started hanging out in like chat rooms, I don't know when I was like 11 or 12 so there's always a lot in like chat rooms and online communities. And then I played the Sims and Age of Empires, and that kind of stuff, a really long time, I, I never had a TV still don't have but my parents will make fun of me when they gave me my first computer for Christmas, I gave it a kiss. And we had a very intense relationship for many, many years.
Chapin 48:36
Do you have any other hobbies that we could learn about
Viola Eva 48:39
it actually I'm consciously don't install any games on my computer anymore because I feel like I might better be sucked into it again. So I think now my hobbies, I try to do off screen stuff so nothing particularly too exciting I like, I like music a lot and I go to a lot of like clubs and festivals and I just like meeting friends and being outside. I do yoga, and to jump into ice bath, and you know, meditate and you know research flow in altered states of consciousness, but much worse I spent gaming as a teenager I don't think I like business it's my new gaming like the hobby that replaced gaming is business.
Chapin 49:23
If you could travel anywhere right now. Just you have place in mind. Are you getting itchy feet are you pretty content.
Viola Eva 49:29
You know what I would love if if everything wasn't canceled I would love to be at the lightning in a bottle this weekend. And then I was really looking forward to going to the US. In August, and, yeah, these are the two trips. My heart is a little bit broken, they kind of happened in 2020 with lightning in the bottle. I to music festival it's like a weird it's like a yoga techno hippie Music Festival. And they have an online version running this weekend that I just shared the post on Instagram that's why it's at the top of my head, in my mind, I would, I would love to be there this weekend. But yeah, it's not happening. No, it's somewhere in the USA, California, probably. Yeah, that's why I would like to be I would like to be at a party barefoot outside and dancing.
Chapin 50:19
Yeah. Awesome. It's been so cool, getting to know you and hearing your story, if you could talk to one member who's listening to this and been inspired to maybe new online business or take up. Could you maybe give them some more words of encouragement to get them out there and actually do it.
Viola Eva 50:36
Good question. You know the thing is ultimately all of this, I think, like it's the Lean Startup it's build measure learn. And I think every part of that is crucial like build is like start something put something out there. I'm not a big fan. If you know you have to be embarrassed to ship it otherwise you know you're being an over perfectionist like do something that is good do something that you're comfortable with, like, no matter what channel that is like blogging or video or Instagram stop putting something up and and kind of like see what happens and it took me a long time to realize but putting yourself out there actually means that you start attracting people, like for example I always share music on my Instagram and I think most people don't listen to it or if you don't ignore it. But then the people who do you know they're my people and they're the people that I excited about and that I have an interesting hobby to share with. And this is also like SEO you know I put mindful marketing I put holistic SEO actually in my trailer I have speaking trade there's a section in it where I tell the audience to breathe in a yogic way. And it's a swing of filtering and sorting and filtering and I know it's kind of like awkward. I'm, I'm an introvert as well and that's another topic on why I chose to become a public speaker and all this stuff. But I want you will realize is, the more you put yourself out or out there and the, the, quote unquote, UI and you're sorting and filtering. All of a sudden, the right people start arriving at your setup and whether that's your customers or your clients with your friends or you can be. That's the path. And then ultimately I also started helping pretty much all of my friends on all the people you know for freedom giving advice and as long as and just you know share your knowledge, share the stuff that you're good at, and for some reason, somehow at some point comically, it was out, like maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week but being helpful, sharing what you stand for. It's gonna pay off eventually that's the experience that I have made.
Chapin 52:46
That's great advice. Once you tell the audience where they can find you.
Viola Eva 52:49
Well, yep so you can find me at flow dash seo.com but I have to warn you, it's a website about SEO. So if you want to chat about with me personally actually your best friend me on LinkedIn Viola Eva
Chapin 53:00
awesome beautiful thank you for your time. We appreciate you.
Viola Eva 53:03
It was very inspiring conversation I'm so glad that I was on today. Thank you so much, awesome yo
Chapin 53:09
thank you so much for your time, like I said, intro it's really struck home for me a lot of the stuff you said I wrote down tons of notes as I read this. Your episode, thank you also for taking the time to meet with me after our call, and just going through in and outs of war I met with misfits and rejects and what I've been doing to generate more listeners, all that information gave me was super valuable and I appreciate you for remember if you're a first time listener please hit subscribe on whatever you're listening to. If you'd like to support misfits or rejects you can do that via Patreon, go to patreon.com backslash misfits rejects any monthly donation is appreciated, nothing is expected, or if you want to represent by wearing a misfits and rejects t shirt, you can head over to misfits mixer. COMM backslash shop and pick up a misfits and rejects t shirt, it's this really awesome very comfortable tri blend of material, so it feels really light and comfortable on your skin and ship them anywhere in the world so if you find yourself in Germany, Australia, today, or maybe in this world, I can easily ship you a shirt so feel free to head over to misfits and newsmax.com backslash shop and pick one up. And with that said, Get ready for next week's episode Monday morning, 9am Pacific thank you so much for listening I think you all are so very beautiful, and I'll see you there. Take care. Ciao. Thank you for listening to this this rejects this inspire you to think about your lifestyle and where you're at,
and possibly make a big decision to choose something different for yourself if you're unhappy
with where you're at in life.
I hope these people that I interviewed inspire you to go out and spread your wings and try something new
to live a different lifestyle that maybe your whole life people are telling you is the wrong one, but when in fact it is the perfect one for you.
And I'll see you next time.